This is a lightly-edited transcript of the Second Site chat session held 30 October 2004. Myrnice (William M. Roberts) was kind enough to supply me with the raw transcript. I corrected some misspellings and moved some comments/responses nearer to each other to make it easier to see threads of conversation. I also removed the joined/left messages.
| TerryR | Good plan, John <g> |
|---|---|
| Virginia | Be back in a bit..... |
| don36 | It loks like a popular chat,John! |
| Myrnice | How is tyhis color |
| kimmer | harsh |
| TerryR | Unreadable, Myrnice <g> |
| Myrnice | I am trying again |
| WayneB | better |
| Satyr | you need to register the room and enable transcripts |
| Janice1 | When the browser is closed does that mean you still stay logged on? |
| Satyr | then ur absent members can see what happened |
| TerryR | No, you are cut off, Jancie1 |
| Myrnice | Maybe this |
| Myrnice | or this |
| Janice1 | Like the green and yellow. |
| gordon | "Maybe this" is far better |
| kimmer | the yellow/green is better than the red background |
| Robert61 | Am I late? |
| Janice1 | Is there somewhere where you read up on "chat procedures"? |
| Myrnice | Ok I will stick with this |
| kimmer | wrong green--use the blueish green |
| John_C | OK, everyone. Here's the official start. Everything after this will be unofficial! <g> |
| Janice1 | That's fine |
| Myrnice | John C are you going to start this off? |
| John_C | Thanks for coming, especially on short notice. I hope to have a few more of these. I'll vary the start times to try and accommodate people in other parts of the world. |
| Menolly | Thank you! |
| gordon | A pleasure, John. What's new? |
| Janice1 | This is a good time for Melbourne. And thanks for putting UMT |
| John_C | I'd like to start by asking if there are any non-users attending? If so, I'll describe the program--very briefly--so we all start roughly on the same page. |
| BobM | Yes, I've looked but am not yet a user. |
| kimmer | I am new at it, just started working on the site the other night. Perfect timing, this chat |
| Robert61 | I don't use it yet. |
| Pat73 | I'm here to find out about it |
| rupp | I'm interested in the program also, but as yet haven't purchased it. |
| wibpa | I am a non user but will be buying the program next week |
| Generations | I am justing logging right now, so I will be asking later. |
| John_C | OK, good, we do have some prospective users! Thanks for coming. As I said, I'll start with a brief overview. For experienced users, don't worry, we'll open it up a little later for any and all questions. |
| Menolly | Not too much later - its already the wee small hours! |
| John_C | Second Site is a web site builder. You can use it to publish some or all of your TMG data on the web. You can also use it to create CDs to share with your family, friends, or fellow researchers. |
| John_C | Second Site reads your TMG data directly; there is no "export" or "import" function. It understands TMG names, events, relationships, sentences, exhibits, etc. |
| John_C | You can think of it as a full-featured report writer that is designed to create web pages. There are literally hundreds of options, and a variety of ways to customize the results. You can start small, however, and produce a working site within a few minutes of installing the software. |
| John_C | Second Site output is different from TMG's HTML output. TMG sends reports to HTML format, and it does it well. Second Site is designed to create sites... collections of pages that work well together to support semi-random browsing of your information. |
| John_C | OK, let me start answering some of the intro questions. |
| bobandelsa | We're interested to learn whether you think you'll be able to find a place to host our SS output on the Net. |
| John_C | bobandelsa--I am still working on it. It doesn't look good at the moment. |
| don36 | John, is it just that there is too little interest? |
| John_C | don36--no. there was reasonable interest, but I can't get an ISP to offer a reasonable package. |
| RogerA | Would like to see a web site for a real beginner. |
| John_C | RogerA--would you like to see a site produced by Second Site (SS)? |
| Janice1 | Would't the answer for RogerA is for him to just make a site? |
| John_C | janice1--perhaps |
| RogerA | John C- |
| RogerA | Yes |
| emgrinolds | Why do some external images show as a camera icon, when you specify that all images should be embedded? |
| John_C | emgrinolds--certain filetypes can not be embedded on the page; only JPG, GIF, and PNG are supported by browsers. SS knows the difference, and forces the other filetypes to be links, not embeds. |
| emgrinolds | Oh - Thanks |
| BobM | I would like to see a feature to expand/collapse on families. |
| John_C | BobM--if you describe what you want in some detail, and email it to me, I'll consider it. |
| BobM | Will do; do you have your email posted? |
| John_C | BobM--it's on the second site web site, http://www.johncardinal.com/ss |
| BobM | Thanks. |
| Robert61 | Do I have to know how to use an FTP program? |
| John_C | robert61--it depends on your web host. FTP is a common choice for transferring files to an ISP. |
| kimmer | what is PNG? |
| John_C | kimmer--png stands for "portable netwok graphics", a graphics filetype |
| kimmer | is PNG universal or for a particular program? |
| JanEri | universal |
| John_C | kimmer--PNG is pretty universal. It is supported by the HTML standard. |
| andy3rd | The trick is to have software that will save images as PNG filetype |
| rupp | is there a trial period for using ss? |
| John_C | rupp--no. You can use the program without buying it, but it will only produce a site with 10 people. |
| Excalibur | John, does the Pages>Site>Main Page Content have a length (character) limit? If it doesn't, I would like to see a few "blank" lines put there so that I can see what I'm working on. |
| John_C | excalibur--there is no limit (practically speaking) |
| John_C | excalibur--you can use the [F7] key to open an Editor Window. It works on all text fields in the SS interface. |
| Excalibur | YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
| Excalibur | Thanks John ... I didn't know that :-) |
| Excalibur | And yes, I just tried it and its exactly what I was looking for! |
| bobandelsa | We find SS so easy and attractive to use, we're getting braver about posting to the Internet. Is there a way we can help you pursue the website issue? Is it mostly $$$? |
| John_C | bobandelsa--hmm. maybe I should ask people who are interested to send an email to the ISP and I am trying to convince. |
| bobandelsa | I think there will be many of us eager to lobby for this! |
| Robert61 | About what do they have to be convinced? The level of interest? |
| John_C | robert61--they are mostly concerned that the package will be low-cost, but the users will need more support than economically attractive for the ISP |
| xjcass | Kimmer, Consider GIF, JPG, and PNG together. Most programs that can use GIF and PNG can usually also use PNG. |
| kimmer | PNG--is it interchangable with GIF? If I create a graphic in GIF, can it also be PNG? |
| xjcass | John, can SS use GIF, JPG, AND PNG??? |
| John_C | xjcass--yes. And almost anything else you throw at it. |
| kimmer | Very interesting! |
| John_C | xjcass--the issue is that browsers only support embedding GIF, JPG, and PNG.The other formats depend on browser settings. |
| andy3rd | John.. exactly what support issues are they concerned with? |
| John_C | andy3rd--the usual stuff. Help setting up domains, email accounts, etc. Problem resolution when sites don't work right. Help using FTP |
| philbrick | John C - What is the current version number? |
| John_C | the current version is 1.7 build 02. |
| xjcass | kimmer, you create either gif, jpg, or png when you create the image. |
| rupp | is there a list of items on your web page that will help us enter data in tmg 5 so that it will work better with ss? |
| John_C | rupp--not that I know of. SecondSite-L is a mailing list where such issues are discussed, however. |
| bobandelsa | Perhaps it would be good to develop a set of standards or competencies - the days when most genealogiests were blue-haired Ladies Who Lunch are over! |
| kimmer | zjcass--when I create a graphic, it seems to automatically be a GIF--what program ? would make the extension PNG? |
| Teresa2 | Is it possible to have a printable output for the charts. I have a lot of charts and several of my visitors have asked for this. |
| John_C | teresa2--I am glad they like them. Unfortunately, they are designed to be rendered by a browser, and browsers don't print very well. Perhaps you could try opening the page in a drawing program. Do any support opening HTML pages? |
| andy3rd | Or maybe a pre-support group where people could get help before bothering the ISP |
| John_C | andy3rd--I am afraid that pre-support group would be me, and I'm not a group, and I wouldn't be getting any ummm... incentive... to do the support. |
| andy3rd | LOL!.. John.. I was thinking more of a volunteer thingie.. for users who are computer savy :) |
| bobandelsa | Well, why not? I think we should be prepared to pay ... somebody... in exchange for having a trusted ISP. |
| gordon | IF you're new to putting up a site, "HTML for Dummies" has it all. Piece of cake. |
| Robert61 | Maybe MSWord? |
| John_C | Cindy Howells has a great book for people new to publishing on the 'net |
| Gerald | I have noticed a definite degradation in speed when I crossed the 65000 person range in The Master Genealogist. In your opinion is this the software or is this probably due to the limitations of my computer (ram & processor)? Still only takes 19 minutes to create a web site on SS, however. |
| John_C | Gerald--I think that's a better topic for a TMG chat, or TMG-L. Briefly, there are a lot of factors. I doubt 65,000 people is a hard threshold. |
| xjcass | Kimmer, try Exporting under the File Menu. What graphics program are you using to create GIFs? |
| gordon | MS Word will save in HTML, but it will create excessive code, almost impossible to edit. Not recommended |
| John_C | gordon--will MS Word do a good job opening an HTML page, though? That's the direction we'd be going. |
| gordon | If you are opening to edit, never tried. I use an editor. The new Netscape will open for editing. |
| kimmer | mostly Paint Shop Pro 8 |
| John_C | Did I miss any questions? If so, please repeat as I think I am caught up. |
| John_C | Why don't some of you post URLs to your sites for the people who haven't made one yet? |
| philbrick | |
| gordon | http://lesher.net |
| DonaldS | http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~djschulteis/ |
| Teresa2 | http://www.pask.org.uk/pask-p/index.htm |
| Richard_Damon | www.richard.damon.name/genealogy |
| kimmer | John_C, when make a correction in TMG will it automatically update to my SS info? |
| John_C | kimmer--you have to make the site again, but that is very easy to do. |
| kimmer | Yes, I thought so, how do I change to look? The pages I first created, I decided I did not like and went make different choices, but the pages still look like the orgiinal. Do I have to delete the first ones? I have not put the site live yet. |
| John_C | kimmer--did you use the Make Site command after making the changes? |
| kimmer | yes, I am pretty sure I did. Are there other settings I need to change to make the "new" choice take effect? |
| John_C | kimmer--no. |
| John_C | kimmer--you may have to refresh the page(s) in your browser. |
| kimmer | oh, I don't think I did that. Will try. |
| Myrnice | John C do you still have the example web pages available on the SS web page? If so why not post that site? |
| John_C | http://www.johncardinal.com/ss/examples.htm (I think!) |
| jb75 | Back to the ISP issue, maybe you could find one who would let the user sign up for a variable fee depending on level of support they want. There are a lot of sophisticated SS users as well as beginners |
| Excalibur | Maybe a section on the Forum for basic web site "support" questions would work or at least help ... things like FTPing to a site are generally covered once and the new user knows pretty much what to do ... that might be a starting point for support. |
| andy3rd | For British Royalty http://thePeerage.com |
| BCDon | I have a very basic site at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fehr/ |
| jibbajabba | MAY I ASK WHO RUNS THIS CHATROOM PLEASE |
| John_C | jibbajabba--why? |
| jibbajabba | because the room aint registered |
| John_C | jibbajabba--it's a room created by Wholly Genes. |
| jibbajabba | whos the owner |
| John_C | dk |
| Robert61 | The screen says "ChatSpace", jibbajabba |
| rupp | what's dk? |
| xjcass | Kimmer, yes, use Export under tha File menu to choose the type of image to create on PantShop8 or . |
| BCDon | John, is there any consideration of expanding the number of relationship that can be shown? |
| John_C | bcdon--can you explain more? you can create many relationship targets |
| BCDon | Sorry more relationships to a single person |
| John_C | bcdon--I still don't understand the question. |
| BCDon | In the relationship box you set the subect id say to myself. The sentence for each related individual will only show the closest relationship to me even if I am related in a number of ways [to] that individual |
| John_C | bcdon--Oh, OK. |
| John_C | bcdon--I'll add it to the wishlist. |
| John_C | bcdon--SS goes through some effort to optimize the relationship calculator because it may have to compute the relationship to many different targets. That will make computing multiple relationships, rather than just the closest, a challenge. IOW, don't hold your breath! (Sorry) |
| BCDon | Thanks John. I realize there may need to be a limit to the number of relationships calculated but lets say 4 or 5 would be my suggestion |
| jibbajabba | sorry i'm a server administrator and was just wondering who ran this room |
| andy3rd | grrr... aol is getting flakey :( |
| John_C | jb75--the ISP I am talking with doesn't have a per-issue support program. It's a reasonable idea, but they find the accounting too cumbersome. |
| Excalibur | jibbajabba, we are using the room with Wholly Genes permission. |
| John_C | dk="don't know" |
| Satyr | lol |
| jibbajabba | ok lol |
| jibbajabba | whos the mod |
| bobandelsa | We'd be interested in corresponding with others to help establish a website. We like the idea of a forum or separate mail list if that would be useful. |
| John_C | bobandelsa--see Second Site site, and the "Other Resources" link. It has a link to the SecondSite-L mailing list |
| jibbajabba | ok dont worry about anything if any trouble makers enter the room me and satyr will deal with them :) ENJOY!! |
| bobandelsa | Anybody interested in continuing the discussion? Brainstorming the issue? |
| gordon | Questions of hosting a site? |
| andy3rd | SS-L seems to me to be a vastly undersused resource |
| CarolMacke | Yes, I'm interested |
| bobandelsa | Yes, finding an ISP, or possibly creating a directory of the current ISPs people like. |
| KeithD | John - Can custom formats be stored in places other than the Formats folder? I don't want to lose them at the next upgrade. |
| John_C | keithd--in the next version, I'll support user formats under the User Data Folder (UDF) ala the way user custom Themes can be in v1.7.02 |
| KeithD | Great - I'll just try to remember to make a backup before then! |
| John_C | KeithD--in general, I'll add more support for user customizations in the UDF, but each one takes time. |
| gordon | You can "host" on an existing site, with permission. Otherwise, getting your own domain name costs less than $10 a year, hosting under $5 a month. |
| Teresa2 | I would like to have a feature that enables static numbering of charts. If I change the sequence it renumbers the charts. I would like the number assigned to be the TMG number. |
| John_C | teresa2--you got it already! |
| John_C | teresa--oops--no you don't! I got confused with custom indexes |
| Teresa2 | John_C--thanks, I know it is very early in the morning, but I thought I had missed something! |
| John_C | teresa2--I'll add a capability to name the chart pages. I won't promise when, though. |
| John_C | Another question--who is using SS to find data inconsistencies or as part of a cleanup project? |
| Janice1 | I am |
| CarolMacke | I am |
| gordon | And I |
| smgenealogy | I am |
| RobynD | I am |
| emgrinolds | I use it to clean up the sentence wording. |
| WayneB | I am |
| kimmer | I know I will. I found tons of errors right off the bat that I have not seen in all the years in TMG. I guess I was so used to looking at them that I did not see them. They glared at me in SS |
| ezzie | I've been using SS for clean up etc. since it came out. I'm finally sort of getting a site up this week if I can figure out the FTP |
| jb75 | Yes to using it to find data inconsistancies |
| FranA | Every time I look at my SS site, I discover TMG problems, not looking for them! |
| John_C | frana--you are not alone. |
| bobt | I use it for cleanups. |
| Generations | I use it for cleanup and for Christmas presents |
| Menolly | Yes, its great for cleanups, but CD's for family reunions are better. |
| Teresa2 | I use SS to clean up all the time, since you added the Last change list is really helps. |
| Excalibur | egads ... UDF, custom themes, cleanup, custom, custom, custom ... I think I must be out of my element! HA HA HA |
| John_C | excalibur--you don't have to use those things if you are happy with the current results!!! |
| Excalibur | I know John :-) I imagine someday I'll question what "those" things are. HA HA |
| Generations | Oh, by the way, I am here now. Sugar overloaded, but here. Myrnice, it's me Teresa Ghee Elliott. <g> |
| kimmer | are we going to be able to get a copy of this chat? I am not able to copy all the URLS so fast. |
| John_C | kimmer--I think myrnice is keeping one. [That's the source of this transcript.] |
| gordon | Kimmer, use your browser's "save" |
| kimmer | Myrnice, can you send me a copy? |
| andy3rd | TGE.. you have thunderstorms there yet? |
| Generations | Andy, No it's warm and muggy here. Is it raining there? |
| kimmer | Gordon, what just go to file>save? |
| andy3rd | That is one thing I REALLY want.. showing ALL relationships a person has to another.. IN ORDER.. not like TMG does. |
| gordon | Yup |
| andy3rd | No Rain yet but I hear runblings :) |
| Myrnice | Right click on the window and select copy All. Open your word processor and select paste. |
| kimmer | thanks, I will try it. |
| KeithD | JohnC - Another item for your wishlist could be an easy way to add a graphic to the header section of pages. I have edited each page template, but I'm sure you would make it easier. |
| John_C | keithd--I will add that to wishlist |
| John_C | but keith--your custom Theme does that very well already! <g> |
| KeithD | John - I'm in the middle of updating to a custom version of the 3 columns format. I decided I like a grid style better than a narrative. |
| Myrnice | I just did this and got 12 pages of tet in Word. |
| kimmer | I just tried it--nothing. do I right click on the chat window where were are all viewing? If so, no menu came up. Nothing |
| rupp | I right clicked too and nothing came up!!! |
| Myrnice | If you can not save the data, email me at [removed] and I will send a copy. |
| bobt | I had sent an email to John C. asking for a basic primer on using pictures and exhibits. I posted his response on the list this afternoon. Am I the only one that would like this? Does it exist somewhere else? |
| kimmer | Myrnice, thanks, I will do that |
| Excalibur | bobt, I would like that too. |
| gordon | Kimmer: works for me, but I'm saving with File-save page as . . |
| DDon | I have quite a collection of maps and plats that I would like to pop up from a link in a narrative--such as John smith moved to Alabama in 1869--clicking on Alabama would pop up a 1969 Alabama map--any sugguestions other than a lot of coding? |
| Generations | Don, You could have the map attached as an exihibit to the moved tag. |
| John_C | ddon--you can do that by attaching exhibits to events |
| DDon | John_C thanks, I'll try it. |
| Generations | John, is there an easy way to create a pedigree chart, where when you click on the date, it would bring up an image of the source? |
| John_C | generations--not that I know of. But why would clicking on the date bring up a source??? |
| Generations | I was thinking that I could put up a basic pedigree, but when you clicked on the date, you would see an image of the proof. |
| Myrnice | By the way has everyone put their data on the map on the TMG forum? |
| John_C | Myrnice--I did. I'm lost with the crowd in Massachusetts |
| Myrnice | Someone found me on the map and sent me an email because he lives near me. |
| philbrick | Myrnice - no, where do we find the map? |
| Myrnice | Click on MemberMap on the toolbar at http://www.whollygenes.com/forums/ |
| bobandelsa | I will -- I must admit that between the TMG-L and SS-L, I have plenty to read and have been ignoring the forum. |
| Excalibur | I'm the same as bobandelsa ... so much to do, so little time ... I'll get to it Myrnice |
| foxfire | I used the right button cliked on save all, opened notepad and paste. worked for me. |
| kimmer | where do I right click? |
| foxfire | excuse me that was copy all. |
| gordon | Right here . . . X |
| kimmer | I get nothing when I right anywhere on the page. |
| John_C | kimmer--neither do I. I think it's an IE issue |
| gordon | Kimmer: Cannot explain that. How about the File dropdown and save as |
| kimmer | or an XP issue |
| vc | I'm using IE and get a menu when right-clicking. |
| rupp | myrnice-what software are you using to connect for this chat? |
| vc | And using XP. |
| bobandelsa | By the way, I'm using Mozilla Firefox -- highly recommended -- right clicking gives me copy all. |
| kimmer | even in File there is no "copy all" Where else could I find it? |
| rupp | is mozilla firefox a freebie? |
| John_C | EVERYONE... We are getting close to the end of the hour, which was the official (but unannounced!) end of the chat. I'll be staying and I invite you to do so, too. |
| gordon | Kimmer: File-Save page as (IE) |
| bobandelsa | Yes, it's an alternative to IE highly recommended in the tech community. |
| bobandelsa | www.mozilla.com |
| gordon | An open source Netscape, is what it is. |
| rupp | I'm really not a techie!!! |
| bobandelsa | Nor am I, although an experienced end user, like you, probably. It's so easy to download and use! |
| kimmer | I did file save as, then went to open what I saved and it tried to get me into the chat room again. No pages though |
| Robert61 | Someone who is using Second Site - what do you like best about it compared to other site building programs? |
| philbrick | Ease of use / embedding images with narrative |
| Generations | Robert, Ease of use. I like that I can easily create a CD in about 5 minutes with no knowledge of how it works |
| andy3rd | Robert.. the automatic chart links is my favorite.. next to the ability to cusomize EVERYTHING about it :) |
| gordon | Robert61: It's designed for TMG, does most of my work for me, pretty much error free. |
| emgrinolds | Professional looking output - without any coding. |
| DonaldS | Robert61, sorry I have only used SecondSite |
| Generations | Also having captions attached to exhibits attached to tags. Wish TMG did that. |
| WayneB | Robert61 - SS reads the data in TMG native without need for ugh (Gedcom) |
| richard_damon | I like how well it integrates with TMG (no gedcom loses). |
| Excalibur | Robert61 ... what I like best are the basic ease of use and the darn output! My first experience was 1) load file, 2) press CNTL-M, 3) Exit and FTP to web site ... I could not believe that it actually worked and it took about 2 seconds for me to actually have a web site! |
| kimmer | The beauty of SS is that is loads directly from TMG--no other program does that to my knowledge. It creates EXACT reporductions of the TMG info, unlike some GEDCOM files that mix up info. |
| Teresa2 | Goodnight John, and thank you for such an excellent program. |
| bobandelsa | Thank you, John -- very useful experience. |
| John_C | bobandelsa--you're welcome. |
| smgenealogy | Thanks John I've enjoyed the chat |
| Janice1 | ye everyone. Thanks John learnt somethings. |
| rupp | Thanks John for all the great programs you have written for use with tmg! I'll be subscribing to SS-L. |
| wibpa | Thanks John, I will be buying and using SS next week. |
| John_C | wibpa--great. Let me know how how it works for you. |
| JohnH | I joined late -- can anyone send me a transcript of this entire chat session? |
| Myrnice | I have stopped logging at this point. Anyone who wants a copy let me know. |