TMG Chat

This is a lightly-edited version of the of the TMG chat session held 26 Feb 2005 (#1).

cgh	is everyone ready for the 2PM chat
Kevin_Sholder	I believe that I am, just needed to check and make sure this would work.
cgh	same here never did this before it should be enlightening
Kevin_Sholder	I hoping we find out when v6.01 will be available.
cgh	i've been using TMG for some time now but am still cloudy on techniques such as sentences - didn't hear that there was an upgrade so soon
TerryR	Hello, all.
darrellm	Hi, all.
Francie	Hi, I'm Here
Bob_Velke	hello, everyone
darrellm	Hail to the Chief.
John_C	Hi
	[Bob disappeared for a second]
darrellm	Scared him off?
Bob_Velke	oops
darrellm	I thought it was me ...
Bob_Velke	How's everyone this afternoon? Anyone else digging out from snow?
darrellm	Snow? I wish.
Francie	Yes - a foot!
John_C	We had 5 inches Thursday into Friday. No big deal after the bigger storms we had earlier this winter
Bob_Velke	Sounds like you need a warm vacation to some tropical islands, John.
TerryR	Snow? Send some our way - we're fresh out.
John_C	Bob: Just what the Dr. ordered!
Bob_Velke	Well, I guess it is time to start. Who's got a question for me?
darrellm	What's new or exciting?
Francie	Lots of little bugs being reported - will we have an update soon?
Bob_Velke	We're preparing v6.01, Francie. I can't promise how long it will be but we're closing in on it.
Francie	Great news!
darrellm	I upgraded to a x.0 version against my better judgement, and frankly 6.0 has been much better than most.
Bob_Velke	As Francie says, there have been lots of little bugs reported and fixed. A few have been high profile but most are of the type that only one or two people have encountered.
Bob_Velke	The cruise has caused a lot of excitement around here - but now that it is nearly sold out, we'll have to put it out of our heads for nine months or so.
barbarag	Good afternoon
Bob_Velke	Hi Barbara.
barbarag	Hi Bob
cgh	can an index be created using the Book Manager
Bob_Velke	An index of reports, cgh? Or an index of people that are in them?
cgh	an index of reports - like at the beginning of a book
Bob_Velke	Like a Table of Contents <g>?
cgh	yes
Bob_Velke	thinking....
barbarag	<g> hope there's not to much smoke
Bob_Velke	In a word, no.
cgh	that's what i thought. so it needs to be generated through a word processor?
Bob_Velke	Yes, that's how I do it, cgh.
cgh	ok thanks
DaveZ	Can a list be created of all the exhibits in my project? I have just started using exhibits and I would like to keep track of the ones that I have already entered into the project.
Bob_Velke	DaveZ, you can SEE all of the exhibits in a project but for a report you may want to look at PathWiz! by Bryan Wetton. There is a free version.
DaveZ	How are you able to "see" all the exhibits?
Bob_Velke	In the Exhibit Log, change the focus to "All Exhibits"
DaveZ	Oh. Now I see them. But I can't print that I presume.
Bob_Velke	Right, Dave.
darrellm	Bob: Is there a way to default the Exhibit Log to "All Exhibits" instead of the current focus person?
Bob_Velke	The Exhibit Log opens to the current focus, whether it is a person, event, citation, place, source, or repository. No, there is no open to change that.
stans	Hi,Bob - When merging datasets within a project, do the sources, tags and repositories from the data set being from also merge, or do they appear as "duplicates," which one then must merge manually?
TerryR	stans - sources and repositories appear as duplicates; tag types are "merged", with those from one dataset takeing precidence
Bob_Velke	stans, the merge process doesn't make any decision about merging people, tags, sourcs, etc.
Bob_Velke	yes, tag TYPES
Bob_Velke	Another question?
bnx	How do I register?
Bob_Velke	the software?
Bob_Velke	bnx, if you bought TMG from Wholly Genes, then you don't need to register it. If you bought it from a dealer, you can go to http://www.whollygenes.com/register.htm
Kevin_Sholder	Can we talk about Place Styles?
Bob_Velke	Yes, Kevin.
henry	Is there a way in which the user can remove the period at the end of sentences, e.g. to run sentences from two or more tags together?
Kevin_Sholder	Darrell, why?
darrellm	Kevin: Because I can get to the Exhibit Log for a person via the toolbar already.
Kevin_Sholder	Bob, is there any plans to improve upon how they are handled, so that the same place can have multiple place styles?
darrellm	Bob: That would be a (minor) wishlist item for me.
bnx	I'm a member
Bob_Velke	ok, darrell
John_C	Kevin: why do you want multiple styles for the same place data?
Bob_Velke	There's been a lot of talk, Kevin. Can you give me an example of a place that needs multiple styles?
John_C	Kevin: Answer Bob and that should answer my question, too
Bob_Velke	bnx, are you talking about registering on the support forum?
Kevin_Sholder	John, To use different prepositions based on the sentence.
darrellm	Bob & Kevin & John: Any place that is used in ways that involve different prepositions, for one thing....
barbarag	bnx, registering your nickname here at chat?
John_C	DarrellM: I think a preposition at the tag level would solve that
CheriM	? (on Reports - Journal - to File - Fonts)
Bob_Velke	There's been a lot of discussion about making the preposition an explicit data object on the Tag Entry and/or Master Place List record. I think that it would be a mistake to control it through multiple styles.
bnx	On this chat session!
darrellm	John: Possibly, but only if all Tags were changed to handle prepositions via the sentence. That has ramifications when some levels are not filled.
darrellm	Bob: I would certainly prefer the preposition to be a Tag level data object.
barbarag	Right click your name, select member profile
Bob_Velke	:-\
Bob_Velke	Cheri, huh?
CheriM	iS IT MY turn?
Kevin_Sholder	Bob, OK, so place style may not be the best way to handle it, but as you indicated "an explicit data" object may be the solution. Can you expand on that thought a little more?
Bob_Velke	Go ahead, Cheri. I didn't understand your last comment.
Kevin_Sholder	CheriM, Fonts for reports is another good topic.
Bob_Velke	John has been an advocate for that. Let's let him explain it <g>.
CheriM	Bob: I go to Reports, then Journal. Under options, I changed the font from Arial because of the letter "I". I previewed on the screen. It's fine.
barbarag	Cheri, just type away, Bob can actually carry on two or more conversations at the same time
Bob_Velke	(plus the one in my head)
CheriM	Bob: But then when I tell it to print to file, it tells me I have only 4 choices.
cgh	i think you should turn off the background color
John_C	Bob: I'd like to see a tag-level preposition field... I need to think about some of the issues before I explain it. After mentioning it a few months ago, I've changed my mind on at least one issue. I'll write something and post it to TMG-L
CheriM	"not among the font families supported by the word processor converter engine." I have MS Word. The font is there.
Bob_Velke	When you output to word processor, Cheri, your options on fonts are more limited because it only knows how to translate certain fonts to all of the word processors. If you output to screen or printer, you won't get that question.
cgh	good job
darrellm	Bob: On the preposition front, my desire is to control prepositions without affecting the MPL at all.
CheriM	Bob: So basically, I should choice one of the 4, then? Arial Courier TimesNewRoman or Symbol?
Kevin_Sholder	Bob, but why is it limited. What is different about TTF that cause us to be unable to use other font type such as vernada?
John_C	darrellm: that's my current thinking, too
Bob_Velke	I think that there would have to be rules of precedence, darrell, like global and local sentences.
Kevin_Sholder	Darrell, I would agree with that.
wayneb	darrellm: I agree too
darrellm	Bob: I agree completely. The rules could be parallel with other rules for local / global sentence "stuff".
redtabby	sigh, I keep getting kicked out, are the transcripts posted for the chats later?
John_C	redtabby: I will post a transcript on my site. See TMG-L for the link. It might not be there until tomorrow.
stans	redtabby - the running commentary says that your Web browser closed. Apparently the problem in with your computer or your server.
darrellm	Bob: I posted something along these lines a few months back. Summary to follow, point by point (brief).
darrellm	Bob: Oops -- on TMG-L, not the forum.
darrellm	Prepositions 1: An MPL place "default" preposition for each "place". Used when no Tag level choice made.
darrellm	Prepositions 2: A Tag level preposition overriding the MPL default value.
darrellm	Prepositions 3: Tag level preposition choices would include "no choice" and "no preposition".
darrellm	Bob:That's my opinion, in a nutshell.
gardener	Bob-What about font selection in RTF reports? Same limits?
Bob_Velke	I think that RTF output also is limited on fonts supported.
CheriM	So we are to pick one of the 4 fonts listed above?
Bob_Velke	Or make a global conversion once the document is opened in the word processor, Cheri.
bnx	why is it such a hassle just trying to backup a project? It used to be so easy
Bob_Velke	what's a hassle, bnx?
bnx	It used to be done in 2 steps. I went from Ultimate Family Tree to TMG & as we "progressed", it became much harder
Bob_Velke	Choose Backup, click on Next, and then Finish, bnx. What is a hassle? You could also create a custom toolbar button that makes a backup with one click.
CheriM	Bob: My only problem is "I". As in he was in Company I4. It looks like l4 in Arial. I have only 2 of them. I go into the report and change the font by hand.
darrellm	Prepositions 4: (I fibbed). A Tag Type preposition default. Overrides the MPL but not a local choice.
barbarag	The back up can be just a couple clicks from an icon on your toolbar. Instructions in an earlier newsletter.
barbarag	Let me find which one
CheriM	Bob: See, my upper case i looks like lower case L's.
bnx	I'll check into that, thanks
stans	TerryR - Regarding merging data sets - I assume that you mean that the data set being merged into takes precedence.
Bob_Velke	a preposition default for the tag TYPE, darrell? That strikes me as odd.
barbarag	bnx, see http://www.whollygenes.com/forums201/index.php?showtopic=48
wayneb	darrellm: Kevin: How is any one of your options better than just modifying the local sentence to use the preposition we want
darrellm	Bob: Not the most important, but useful for sentences like "emigrated" and "immigrated".
darrellm	wayneb: The options I suggest are not an "all or nothing" suggestion. The local Tag control is biggest IMO.
John_C	wayneb: putting the preposition in the sentence means that the software doesn't know it's a preposition
John_C	that's important if one kind of output should use a preposition and another shouldn't
barbarag	bnx, Scroll down to Did you know?
FranSegall	I often go from one computer to another using backup/restore. Is there any difference between restoring "over" a project and deleting the project before doing the restore? Any advantage one way or the other?
John_C	If the sentence isn't involved (not a narrative) the preposition is lost
Bob_Velke	If it is inside conditional brackets in the global sentence, then TMG "knows" that it is a preposition. If the MPL or Tag Type allowed you to specify a preposition, it would have to replace anything that is inside those brackets.
darrellm	<g> John_C: Losing the preposition outside of a sentence can be a positive for some approaches. (Mine e.g.)
John_C	Bob: A string of characters inside conditional brackets could be something other than a preposition
John_C	Plus putting it there means that sentences have to change at the local level for a data difference that shouldn't require that... data shouldn't be in the sentence rules
Bob_Velke	No, Fran.
Kevin_Sholder	What about using valiables for prepositions?
darrellm	Bob: I think for one person to combine preposition "approaches" could get ugly, yes.
barbarag	Fran, I also go use 2 computers and now keep my data on a USB drive. Before removing the drive, a backup is made onto the hard drive.
Bob_Velke	Yes, John, but that's the only way TMG has to know how to add a preposition. Otherwise you'll get two.
John_C	My point is that a preposition in this case is a characteristic of the display of the place data and putting it in the sentence is bad
John_C	I don't put people's titles in the sentence
Bob_Velke	"[P] was born <[D]> <near [L]>" would otherwise produce "near in Virginia".
John_C	Bob: I'm OK with it overriding the text in the conditional, but I don't want that to be the only way to specify preps
darrellm	Kevin: Are you saying something like Went to school <[PREP]><[L]>. with [PREP] a Tag-level value? I could use that....
Kevin_Sholder	Darrell, yes!
John_C	Ugh
John_C	Who wants to go rewrite all their sentences?
darrellm	John_C and Bob: Also, I think care should be taken to avoid "breaking" the current approach. But Bob has been very good about avoiding that kind of thing....
Bob_Velke	Whether you specify the preposition on the Tag Entry screen or the MPL, John, it would have to replace the text inside the brackets, right?
John_C	Bob: Right
Kevin_Sholder	John, just an idea here, trying to brainstorm a bit.
FranSegall	OK. Is there any way to backup from computer A and restore to computer B but leaving the preferences on B intact? Especially "paths" on the Advanced part -- the folder structures are different on the 2 computers and I have to keep changing them back.
darrellm	Bob: In my view, if no preposition as suggested here is defined at any level, then current rules should apply.
Bob_Velke	I'm guessing that there are some new users whose eyes are rolling up inside their heads right now. If you have a beginner question, please speak up or these experts will drown you out <g>.
FranSegall	Barb, I've considered that. Do you keep your exhibits, reports and backup folders and all on the USB drive?
darrellm	Bob: I'm not clear on "the text inside the brackets" in this context.
Bob_Velke	certainly, darrell. Backward compatible.
darrellm	<;-)> I'll even stop typing for a bit
CheriM	I have a question about mulitple wives. Can I go ahead?
Bob_Velke	conditional brackets, darrell.
Bob_Velke	PLEASE, Cheri <g>.
cgh	you're right Bob, i'm a beginner and am completely lost - i realize that they are talking about sentences but haven't gotten that sophisticated yet. i do have a question though. how do you enter a child without a mother - what do you put in the mother slot?
darrellm	Bob: It's the "text inside" part -- what gets replaced?
Bob_Velke	put nothing there, cgh, unless you know something about her.
Bob_Velke	darrell, "<near [L]>". Near gets replaced.
Bob_Velke	you don't have to record a mother, cgh.
CheriM	Bob: If Fred marries Wilma and she dies, then he marries Betty and she dies and then he marries Minnie Mouse, I get the sentences (in the Journal Rep) that says he married Wilma. Blah blah blah. He married Betty. Blah blah blah. I'd like it to say he married Betty second, or he married second to Betty. A friend suggested doing alternate roles.
Kevin_Sholder	unless near is a varialble [NEAR]
barbarag	Fran, I keep the data on the USB drive, I have exhibits saves on both computer using the same path. The USB drive is also used to put exhibits on that I need to add to the other computer
cgh	so that when a report is printed like a family group sheet does it just leave the mother section blank?
darrellm	Bob: I would see this as a problem to be solved by the user. The preposition would be "part of [L]" in the very limited sense of output. Not in the MPL. Kevin's sentence variable is a different idea.
FranSegall	And John, whichever way this preposition thing is resolved, you need to read our minds re: the zillion ways we've handled prepositions and start coding something to help us clean up our data AGAIN!
barbarag	Fran, I keep my backups on the hard drive one each computer. So if one hard drive, or the USB drive expires. I have fairly current backups
cgh	one would think that the compiler forgot to insert a name
Bob_Velke	If you want to do that without having to change the sentence on the Tag Entry screen, then rolls is a way to do it, Cheri. But what will Pebbles and Bam Bam say about all this??
CheriM	CGH: You could just type in "Unknown" for the mother. I do that alot
stans	All - I'm resigned to having to edit prepositions at the word processor level. My opinion is that there is just so much that an automated process can do.
Bob_Velke	Kevin, we can't have a variable for every preposition.
Bob_Velke	rolls=roles. I must be hungry.
darrellm	Bob: I hope Kevin wasn't suggesting that. I thought he meant a Tag-local value, accessed by [PREP] or the like.
cgh	so you end up with several "unknown" in the pick list?
CheriM	Bob: So when I add wife 2 I could change the tag sentence on that screen only (vs. globally?) Am I making sense?
Bob_Velke	Why, Cheri?
CheriM	CGH--Yes, I have many "Unknowns"
cgh	okay then i guess that's okay
Bob_Velke	Why, Cheri <g>?
CheriM	Bob: So it says he married second to Betty
Bob_Velke	You don't need to add a person named "unknown" to do that, Cheri.
barbarag	CherisM. Read Terry's http://tmg.reigelridge.com/Roles-Marriage.htm -- one way to handle multiple marriages
darrellm	cgh & CheriM: I don't understand the need to enter anything for an unknown mother. What is the benefit, as against leaving the mother field blank?
Pegasus891	What is MPL?
	Master Place List [72 people responded <g>]
John_C	FYI: TMG acronyms are explained here: http://www.whollygenes.com/forums201/index.php?showtopic=333
stans	CheriM - My feeling is that this is one reason not to use the Picklist. In a large data set, having the picklist linked slows things down too much. I much prefer using Project Explorer, where Reference Field, &c, are displayed. That way, you know which "unknown" it is.
Kevin_Sholder	Bob, true, as I said before, trying to put as many cards on the table as we can.
CheriM	Barbara==OK, will print that one out. Thanks.
CheriM	Darrell: I just don't like the blank field, that's all. And in some of my records it clearly states that the father was unknown (baby out of wedlock).
Bob_Velke	I'm afraid that I have a family committment and have to leave soon. Maybe others will hang around. Is there another question for me?
FranSegall	Barb, but if (hypothetically, of course) I didn't want to leave the USB drive attached - at work, for example (hypothetically, of course)- is there any way to keep the Advanced preferences path settings from reverting back every time? It's kinda wierd, some of them change to the way the preferences were on the other computer, but some of them revert back to the default (under the TMG program folder).
cgh	is it better to say in a memo under the child that the mother is unknown? this way you don't get all the "unknown" in the pick list.
darrellm	CheriM: I would certainly record the direct statement that the father was unknown, but even that doesn't require an entry in the father field.
Pegasus891	I assign the unknowns a number so if I locate the information I can enter it for the proper unknown.
CheriM	Stans: I don't mind all my "Unknowns." If I find out who it is, I go to the spouse and then I see the Unknown spouse and I fix it from there. That's my fix-it. Guess it's just a difference of user style.
darrellm	Pegasus891: What benefit is that over leaving the field blank? The question is not meant to be rhetorical.
henry	Before you go Bob. Is there a way in which the user can remove the period at the end of sentences, e.g. to run sentences from two or more tags together?
Kevin_Sholder	Darrell, I would agree with that.
John_C	Henry: there is no way to do that as far as I know (AFAIK)
Bob_Velke	Not currently, Henry, but it is on the wish list. You can suppress one sentence and write a combined one in the second, however.
Kevin_Sholder	I'm out of here, have kids that want to play mario gamecube with Dad, since mom is away for the weekend. BYE and THANK YOU.
CheriM	CGH: That would be another way to work around the Unknonws.
barbarag	Fran, the project preferences are stored with the project so remain the same on each computer, Program options can be different on each machine
Bob_Velke	Do you put "unknown" in dates and places, I wonder?
stans	henry - A presenter at RUG in Arlington, Va., addressed this. Replace [P] at the beginning of a tag with a comma or a semicolon, followed by a space.
darrellm	stans: Does that suppress the ending period from the previous sentence?
CheriM	Bob: Personally I put Circa dates, and sometimes I can put "maybe Smith Co" in the places with a note in the memo.
FranSegall	Thanks, Barb. Although that doesn't seem to be quite what's happening. But I'll take another look.
Bob_Velke	ok, that's when you know something about the date or place. But if you know nothing about it, do you enter "unknown"?
stans	Darrell - No, unfortunately; however, my opinion is that it is inevitable that some editing must remain at the word processor level.
CheriM	Bob: Personally, I just leave it blank until I can find a clue.
darrellm	stans: I don't accept that for my own output, but if you work that way then it's not difficult to use.
Bob_Velke	Cheri, that's the point of those who don't enter "unknown" people <g>.
Bob_Velke	If it isn't entered, then it is unknown without having to say so.
darrellm	CheriM: I'm still wondering what actual benefit you get from entering the unknowns. I'm not saying there isn't one....
CheriM	Bob: Well, it's like a crooked picture in the house. It drives me crazy. I can't stand to see the name at the top, the father's name and no mother's name. So I put Unknown. LOL
darrellm	CheriM: Breathing exercises might help! <g>
Bob_Velke	OK, Cheri. If "Unknown" there comforts you, then knock yourself out <g>.
CheriM	Yep :)
CheriM	LOL
cgh	you guys are bad!
cgh	LOL
barbarag	<g> not us
Bob_Velke	We're just trying to see if we were missing something, Cheri. Thanks for taking it in good humor.
bnx	Not you Barb, your good
Bob_Velke	ok, folks, sorry but I have to go. Thanks for coming.
John_C	cu
barbarag	Talk to you latter tonight
darrellm	salutations!
bnx	When is the next one?
Bob_Velke	Feel free to hang around. There are many experts here.
CheriM	Bob: No, there really is no point in it. Just preference, I suppose. Like that stupid "I" in that army unit that drives me crazy and looks like lower case l.
Bob_Velke	dunno, bnx. Watch the newsletter.
Bob_Velke	Is anyone here from the East side of the big pond?
Bob_Velke	Wondering if the 2pm timeslot helps.
CheriM	Isn't the next one at 11pm ET tonight?
Bob_Velke	well, yes <g>
bnx	2pm is good
CheriM	I'm Pacific time.
barbarag	I think at one time there were 28 lurking about today.
cgh	i'm eastern - where is the big pond?
henry	This time is good for me in UK
Francie	This time is great for us that go to bed early!
Bob_Velke	the Atlantic.
Pegasus891	I agree with Cheri. For me there is a difference between blanks where I have not yet done research and blanks where I have tried to find information but it remains unknown.
Bob_Velke	ah, good Henry. Good to see you here.
CheriM	Pegasus: I think it's just researcher style. That's what makes TMG so good. You can pretty much adapt it to the way you one.
barbarag	Bob, enjoy the afternoon.
CheriM	you want, I mean.
Bob_Velke	Thanks, everyone for coming. Bye...
Bob_Velke	<poof>
CheriM	Bye Bob
Pegasus891	No, I don't put unknown in dates and places.
CheriM	Thank you all. I'll try the marriage thing and then try to come back tonight. Bye
darrellm	CheriM & Pegasus891: How do you avoid all the unknowns popping up in reports, or on charts?
darrellm	Boy, it's "turn out the lights, the party's over".
Pegasus891	I'm still here
FranSegall	Thanks, y'all! The laundry is calling my name....
Pegasus891	I read slowly. I use unknown judiciously. I don't have tons.
cgh	so am i - it's my first time and have enjoyed it however the preposition thingy got a little sticky
darrellm	Pegasus891: OK, understood.
Pegasus891	I have only done a little with narratives. I haven't printed anything since I got my new version
barbarag	cgh we always have a good time here. many opinions!
darrellm	cgh: The preposition thing is going to do that. Just remember you can carry on a parallel conversation. You don't have to "wait your turn".
Pegasus891	I learned a lot in a local users group. I have to get back to it.
barbarag	I think at one time today, 3 or 4 different conversations were going on
cgh	don't laugh too loud - do you all type in the name of the person you are replying to or is there a simpler way?
Pegasus891	It is sponsored by our state genealogical society.
Francie	At least - maybe 5!
darrellm	John_C: Is there anything important about prepositions we missed?
AllenM	<g> Darrell, we could always talk about before and after if we want sticky.
John_C	Darrell: Yes--it should be simple; simplifying the design--at the possible cost of a few extra keystrokes here and there--is far better than handling every condition
barbarag	cgh, we try to add the name. That way we can sort of follow a conversation
darrellm	cgh: I type it in. If there's an easier way, I'm all ears ... errrr, screen.
Pegasus891	I learned about the project explorer. I went and looked it up. I didn't know it was there.
cgh	darrellm: okay thanks
darrellm	AllenM: HOOT! Sticky is one thing, argumentative would be another!!!
Pegasus891	Can anyone tell me how to surpress a note when I am printing out narratives?
darrellm	John_C: Which is why I've tried to think of things that aren't "all or nothing" as I mentioned.
darrellm	Pegasus891: What kind of note? A Tag memo?
Pegasus891	yes
darrellm	Pegasus891: Tag memos print in one of two cases. If "append memo" is in the report definition; or if the Tag sentence calls for it.
TerryR	Hi, just got back and see there was talk about multiple styles for the same place.
barbarag	Pegasus891, do you always want it surpressed or just sometimes
Pegasus891	I always want to surpress this particular note for this person.
darrellm	Pegasus891: If you want to append the memo for the report overall, but not for some sentences, add <[M0]> ("em-zero") to the sentence.
darrellm	Pegasus891: For specific text, you can use curly braces (shift-[ and shift-]). Or, if you want to supress an entire sentence, begin it with - or -- exclusion markers. More?
darrellm	TerryR: A lot of discussion about prepositions, but the styles question per se got lost in the shuffle.
barbarag	There's several ways -- See Exclude Information in the Help Files
darrellm	<;-)> barbarag: That would be "more".
barbarag	darrellm - so pick up the style question again tonignt.
darrellm	barbarag: I'll be here.
barbarag	darrellm - me too.
TerryR	Thanks, Darrell, I've been pushing for allowing multiple styles per place as a way to get long then short place names in reports.
barbarag	It's time for me to leave, 'see' some of you later
TerryR	Looks like the discussion here on multiple styles was to address the preposition issue.
John_C	Terry: Why not suggest adding a "Short place output template"?
darrellm	TerryR: True, but I don't think prepositions would be the only - not even the most important - reason for a change to styles handling.
TerryR	John: Like in SS?
TerryR	That's one way to do it, but seems to me less flexible.
John_C	Terry: Well... SS doesn't have a short place template. It uses the TMG project's default. I am suiggesting a short place template that varies by place style.
darrellm	<g> John_C: Better, a "short place" sentence variable. Even better, emulate Second Site.
Pegasus891	thanks
John_C	TMG would need logic to use the short place template based on the contents of previous tags in the narratrive
TerryR	I'm not clear on how to make a single template that works with various elements being present.
darrellm	Pegasus891: Does what you found answer your question?
TerryR	But SS has a long then short feature - the short uses TMG's short place?
John_C	Terry: Then specify a short place for the place
John_C	TerryR: Yes
darrellm	TerryR: It's gloriously effective.
TerryR	But you can't do that at the tag level, can you?
Pegasus891	Darrellm: Yes, thank you.
John_C	No, you can't do that at the tag level, but the place data doesn't change at the tag level
TerryR	But the desired output does.
TerryR	At least I think it does.
John_C	SS watches for the same place record used multiple times in a narrative. If the user has selected short, then full, SS substitutes the short place for the 2nd thru Nth places
darrellm	John_C: TMG would have to determine an equivalent to Second Site's "person entry"; a clear line at which the place replacement starts over.
John_C	Darrell: I think TMG has that concept now, though I admit I haven't reviewed every report
darrellm	John_C: I have to admit I haven't put much effort into the minutiae of paper reports from TMG 6.
John_C	DarrellM: neither have I... <g>
TerryR	I'd think the long then short method would be a good addition to TMG.
TerryR	With a report like a Journal, though, does it start over with each person, or one time thru for the whole report?
John_C	TerryR: I'd suggest restarting at each person. For spouse and children events within a person entry, they would be subject to the rule
TerryR	Sounds reasonable.
AllenM	I agree with John about starting with each person.
darrellm	-- lurkers -- Any questions?
TerryR	Each "person" entry is a unit, with the spouse and children listed below being the same unit.
John_C	Thanks Allen--that's what I meant
TerryR	It's less work to set up than using styles, and adjusts for changes in output with different reports.
John_C	Terry: Exactly. You don't want to have to modify tag B because you just added tag A
TerryR	But slightly less flexible within a given person's narrative.
John_C	But... I think one short template for the entire project might not be enough. THat's why I suggest a short place template for each place style. Perhaps it's not necessary
AllenM	Terry,
AllenM	there comes a point when you have to edit in a word processor. Pace, Darrell
TerryR	Never! <g>
AllenM	What, never?
John_C	AllenM: Those of us who generate SS sites every couple days don't want to post-process, though Darrell does ! <g>
TerryR	Yes, but I really don't believe in doing that - I find I keep outputting different reports with different combinations of people, so want the edits to "stick."
darrellm	Pace tecum, Allen, but so far for me, not true.
John_C	I've got to go, and I am going to grab the transcript now. Any objections?
TerryR	Bye.
TerryR	John
AllenM	Bye
darrellm	John_C: And every new feature, I pare down the post-processing more. I may even get it all in one batch file!
darrellm	John_C: By the way, I don't use post-processing to handle content. I do all that in TMG using the assumption the output will be left alone.
TerryR	Wonder if you could develop a short place template that includes conditionals?
darrellm	Laundry is calling me too. Later tonight!
TerryR	Say if the city exists, omit the county, but if not, include it?
darrellm	TerryR: I was about to say you can do that now, but not I think with "nested" or "not" conditionals....
darrellm	Bye all!!!
TerryR	I'm thinking that one short place template can't work when some places include cities, and others don't, for example.
John_C	Terry: In the current SS, I use the same rules for the short place template as for the output template in the style.
John_C	I also think that the short place logic has to handle some special cases: if the short place template yields a blank place, but the actual place isn't blank, show the full place, for example
TerryR	I'm not sure what that means in this case??
John_C	Place templates have limited conditional rules and SS uses them for the short place template
TerryR	I don't think that solves my problem. When I have a place with a city, county, state, I might want city only for short.
John_C	That's more complicated... if city <> blank then show city, else ...
TerryR	But if it's county, state, I want county for short. I don't think I can do both with exiting rules.
TerryR	Your idea of a short template per style would work, but require me to set the style depending on the contents.
TerryR	Have we beat this to death?
AllenM	But isn't that what styles are all about anyway?
TerryR	I suppose, but have never found a need for them so far.
TerryR	I find the standard style works find for the full place.
TerryR	So having to set them to get the short place to work seems unnecessarly complex if it could be set up with a clever enough short template
AllenM	Wait a minute! Isn't the short place enough? In the MPL, County, State is a different place from City, County, State.
TerryR	The short place field in the MPL would work, but they're awful to use in my view. I'm looking for the short place template to be able to do it automatically.
TerryR	I'd rather set place styles for every tag than have to enter something in the short place field for many places.
TerryR	Now if you could access the short place field from a tag rather than having to go to the MPL, that might be different.
AllenM	I see what you mean, but I have a lot fewer places than tags.

cgh

is everyone ready for the 2PM chat

Kevin_Sholder

I believe that I am, just needed to check and make sure this would work.

cgh

same here never did this before it should be enlightening

Kevin_Sholder

I hoping we find out when v6.01 will be available.

cgh

i've been using TMG for some time now but am still cloudy on techniques such as sentences - didn't hear that there was an upgrade so soon

TerryR

Hello, all.

darrellm

Hi, all.

Francie

Hi, I'm Here

Bob_Velke

hello, everyone

darrellm

Hail to the Chief.

John_C

[Bob disappeared for a second]

darrellm

Scared him off?

Bob_Velke

oops

darrellm

I thought it was *me* ...

Bob_Velke

How's everyone this afternoon? Anyone else digging out from snow?

darrellm

Snow? I wish.

Francie

Yes - a foot!

John_C

We had 5 inches Thursday into Friday. No big deal after the bigger storms we had earlier this winter

Bob_Velke

Sounds like you need a warm vacation to some tropical islands, John.

TerryR

Snow? Send some our way - we're fresh out.

John_C

Bob: Just what the Dr. ordered!

Bob_Velke

Well, I guess it is time to start. Who's got a question for me?

darrellm

What's new or exciting?

Francie

Lots of little bugs being reported - will we have an update soon?

Bob_Velke

We're preparing v6.01, Francie. I can't promise how long it will be but we're closing in on it.

Francie

Great news!

darrellm

I upgraded to a x.0 version against my better judgement, and frankly 6.0 has been much better than most.

Bob_Velke

As Francie says, there have been lots of little bugs reported and fixed. A few have been high profile but most are of the type that only one or two people have encountered.

Bob_Velke

The cruise has caused a lot of excitement around here - but now that it is nearly sold out, we'll have to put it out of our heads for nine months or so.

barbarag

Good afternoon

Bob_Velke

Hi Barbara.

barbarag

Hi Bob

cgh

can an index be created using the Book Manager

Bob_Velke

An index of reports, cgh? Or an index of people that are in them?

cgh

an index of reports - like at the beginning of a book

Bob_Velke

Like a Table of Contents <g>?

cgh

yes

Bob_Velke

thinking....

barbarag

<g> hope there's not to much smoke

Bob_Velke

In a word, no.

cgh

that's what i thought. so it needs to be generated through a word processor?

Bob_Velke

Yes, that's how I do it, cgh.

cgh

ok thanks

DaveZ

Can a list be created of all the exhibits in my project? I have just started using exhibits and I would like to keep track of the ones that I have already entered into the project.

Bob_Velke

DaveZ, you can SEE all of the exhibits in a project but for a report you may want to look at PathWiz! by Bryan Wetton. There is a free version.

DaveZ

How are you able to "see" all the exhibits?

Bob_Velke

In the Exhibit Log, change the focus to "All Exhibits"

DaveZ

Oh. Now I see them. But I can't print that I presume.

Bob_Velke

Right, Dave.

darrellm

Bob: Is there a way to default the Exhibit Log to "All Exhibits" instead of the current focus person?

Bob_Velke

The Exhibit Log opens to the current focus, whether it is a person, event, citation, place, source, or repository. No, there is no open to change that.

stans

Hi,Bob - When merging datasets within a project, do the sources, tags and repositories from the data set being from also merge, or do they appear as "duplicates," which one then must merge manually?

TerryR

stans - sources and repositories appear as duplicates; tag types are "merged", with those from one dataset takeing precidence

Bob_Velke

stans, the merge process doesn't make any decision about merging people, tags, sourcs, etc.

Bob_Velke

yes, tag TYPES

Bob_Velke

Another question?

bnx

How do I register?

Bob_Velke

the software?

Bob_Velke

bnx, if you bought TMG from Wholly Genes, then you don't need to register it. If you bought it from a dealer, you can go to http://www.whollygenes.com/register.htm

Kevin_Sholder

Can we talk about Place Styles?

Bob_Velke

Yes, Kevin.

henry

Is there a way in which the user can remove the period at the end of sentences, e.g. to run sentences from two or more tags together?

Kevin_Sholder

Darrell, why?

darrellm

Kevin: Because I can get to the Exhibit Log for a person via the toolbar already.

Kevin_Sholder

Bob, is there any plans to improve upon how they are handled, so that the same place can have multiple place styles?

darrellm

Bob: That would be a (minor) wishlist item for me.

bnx

I'm a member

Bob_Velke

ok, darrell

John_C

Kevin: why do you want multiple styles for the same place data?

Bob_Velke

There's been a lot of talk, Kevin. Can you give me an example of a place that needs multiple styles?

John_C

Kevin: Answer Bob and that should answer my question, too

Bob_Velke

bnx, are you talking about registering on the support forum?

Kevin_Sholder

John, To use different prepositions based on the sentence.

darrellm

Bob & Kevin & John: Any place that is used in ways that involve different prepositions, for one thing....

barbarag

bnx, registering your nickname here at chat?

John_C

DarrellM: I think a preposition at the tag level would solve that

CheriM

? (on Reports - Journal - to File - Fonts)

Bob_Velke

There's been a lot of discussion about making the preposition an explicit data object on the Tag Entry and/or Master Place List record. I think that it would be a mistake to control it through multiple styles.

bnx

On this chat session!

darrellm

John: Possibly, but only if *all* Tags were changed to handle prepositions via the sentence. That has ramifications when some levels are not filled.

darrellm

Bob: I would certainly *prefer* the preposition to be a Tag level data object.

barbarag

Right click your name, select member profile

Bob_Velke

:-\

Bob_Velke

Cheri, huh?

CheriM

iS IT MY turn?

Kevin_Sholder

Bob, OK, so place style may not be the best way to handle it, but as you indicated "an explicit data" object may be the solution. Can you expand on that thought a little more?

Bob_Velke

Go ahead, Cheri. I didn't understand your last comment.

Kevin_Sholder

CheriM, Fonts for reports is another good topic.

Bob_Velke

John has been an advocate for that. Let's let him explain it <g>.

CheriM

Bob: I go to Reports, then Journal. Under options, I changed the font from Arial because of the letter "I". I previewed on the screen. It's fine.

barbarag

Cheri, just type away, Bob can actually carry on two or more conversations at the same time

Bob_Velke

(plus the one in my head)

CheriM

Bob: But then when I tell it to print to file, it tells me I have only 4 choices.

cgh

i think you should turn off the background color

John_C

Bob: I'd like to see a tag-level preposition field... I need to think about some of the issues before I explain it. After mentioning it a few months ago, I've changed my mind on at least one issue. I'll write something and post it to TMG-L

CheriM

"not among the font families supported by the word processor converter engine." I have MS Word. The font is there.

Bob_Velke

When you output to word processor, Cheri, your options on fonts are more limited because it only knows how to translate certain fonts to all of the word processors. If you output to screen or printer, you won't get that question.

cgh

good job

darrellm

Bob: On the preposition front, *my* desire is to control prepositions *without* affecting the MPL at all.

CheriM

Bob: So basically, I should choice one of the 4, then? Arial Courier TimesNewRoman or Symbol?

Kevin_Sholder

Bob, but why is it limited. What is different about TTF that cause us to be unable to use other font type such as vernada?

John_C

darrellm: that's my current thinking, too

Bob_Velke

I think that there would have to be rules of precedence, darrell, like global and local sentences.

Kevin_Sholder

Darrell, I would agree with that.

wayneb

darrellm: I agree too

darrellm

Bob: I agree completely. The rules could be parallel with other rules for local / global sentence "stuff".

redtabby

sigh, I keep getting kicked out, are the transcripts posted for the chats later?

John_C

redtabby: I will post a transcript on my site. See TMG-L for the link. It might not be there until tomorrow.

stans

redtabby - the running commentary says that your Web browser closed. Apparently the problem in with your computer or your server.

darrellm

Bob: I posted something along these lines a few months back. Summary to follow, point by point (brief).

darrellm

Bob: Oops -- on TMG-L, not the forum.

darrellm

Prepositions 1: An MPL place "default" preposition for each "place". Used when no Tag level choice made.

darrellm

Prepositions 2: A Tag level preposition overriding the MPL default value.

darrellm

Prepositions 3: Tag level preposition choices would include "no choice" and "no preposition".

darrellm

Bob:That's *my* opinion, in a nutshell.

gardener

Bob-What about font selection in RTF reports? Same limits?

Bob_Velke

I think that RTF output also is limited on fonts supported.

CheriM

So we are to pick one of the 4 fonts listed above?

Bob_Velke

Or make a global conversion once the document is opened in the word processor, Cheri.

bnx

why is it such a hassle just trying to backup a project? It used to be so easy

Bob_Velke

what's a hassle, bnx?

bnx

It used to be done in 2 steps. I went from Ultimate Family Tree to TMG & as we "progressed", it became much harder

Bob_Velke

Choose Backup, click on Next, and then Finish, bnx. What is a hassle? You could also create a custom toolbar button that makes a backup with one click.

CheriM

Bob: My only problem is "I". As in he was in Company I4. It looks like l4 in Arial. I have only 2 of them. I go into the report and change the font by hand.

darrellm

Prepositions 4: (I fibbed). A Tag Type preposition default. Overrides the MPL but not a local choice.

barbarag

The back up can be just a couple clicks from an icon on your toolbar. Instructions in an earlier newsletter.

barbarag

Let me find which one

CheriM

Bob: See, my upper case i looks like lower case L's.

bnx

I'll check into that, thanks

stans

TerryR - Regarding merging data sets - I assume that you mean that the data set being merged into takes precedence.

Bob_Velke

a preposition default for the tag TYPE, darrell? That strikes me as odd.

barbarag

bnx, see http://www.whollygenes.com/forums201/index.php?showtopic=48

wayneb

darrellm: Kevin: How is any one of your options better than just modifying the local sentence to use the preposition we want

darrellm

Bob: Not the most important, but useful for sentences like "emigrated" and "immigrated".

darrellm

wayneb: The options I suggest are not an "all or nothing" suggestion. The local Tag control is biggest IMO.

John_C

wayneb: putting the preposition in the sentence means that the software doesn't know it's a preposition

John_C

that's important if one kind of output should use a preposition and another shouldn't

barbarag

bnx, Scroll down to Did you know?

FranSegall

I often go from one computer to another using backup/restore. Is there any difference between restoring "over" a project and deleting the project before doing the restore? Any advantage one way or the other?

John_C

If the sentence isn't involved (not a narrative) the preposition is lost

Bob_Velke

If it is inside conditional brackets in the global sentence, then TMG "knows" that it is a preposition. If the MPL or Tag Type allowed you to specify a preposition, it would have to replace anything that is inside those brackets.

darrellm

<g> John_C: Losing the preposition outside of a sentence can be a positive for some approaches. (Mine e.g.)

John_C

Bob: A string of characters inside conditional brackets could be something other than a preposition

John_C

Plus putting it there means that sentences have to change at the local level for a data difference that shouldn't require that... data shouldn't be in the sentence rules

Bob_Velke

No, Fran.

Kevin_Sholder

What about using valiables for prepositions?

darrellm

Bob: I think for one person to combine preposition "approaches" could get ugly, yes.

barbarag

Fran, I also go use 2 computers and now keep my data on a USB drive. Before removing the drive, a backup is made onto the hard drive.

Bob_Velke

Yes, John, but that's the only way TMG has to know how to add a preposition. Otherwise you'll get two.

John_C

My point is that a preposition in this case is a characteristic of the display of the place data and putting it in the sentence is bad

John_C

I don't put people's titles in the sentence

Bob_Velke

"[P] was born <[D]> <near [L]>" would otherwise produce "near in Virginia".

John_C

Bob: I'm OK with it overriding the text in the conditional, but I don't want that to be the only way to specify preps

darrellm

Kevin: Are you saying something like Went to school <[PREP]><[L]>. with [PREP] a Tag-level value? I could use that....

Kevin_Sholder

Darrell, yes!

John_C

Ugh

John_C

Who wants to go rewrite all their sentences?

darrellm

John_C and Bob: Also, I think care should be taken to avoid "breaking" the current approach. But Bob has been very good about avoiding that kind of thing....

Bob_Velke

Whether you specify the preposition on the Tag Entry screen or the MPL, John, it would have to replace the text inside the brackets, right?

John_C

Bob: Right

Kevin_Sholder

John, just an idea here, trying to brainstorm a bit.

FranSegall

OK. Is there any way to backup from computer A and restore to computer B but leaving the preferences on B intact? Especially "paths" on the Advanced part -- the folder structures are different on the 2 computers and I have to keep changing them back.

darrellm

Bob: In my view, if no preposition as suggested here is defined at any level, then current rules should apply.

Bob_Velke

I'm guessing that there are some new users whose eyes are rolling up inside their heads right now. If you have a beginner question, please speak up or these experts will drown you out <g>.

FranSegall

Barb, I've considered that. Do you keep your exhibits, reports and backup folders and all on the USB drive?

darrellm

Bob: I'm not clear on "the text inside the brackets" in this context.

Bob_Velke

certainly, darrell. Backward compatible.

darrellm

<;-)> I'll even stop typing for a bit

CheriM

I have a question about mulitple wives. Can I go ahead?

Bob_Velke

conditional brackets, darrell.

Bob_Velke

PLEASE, Cheri <g>.

cgh

you're right Bob, i'm a beginner and am completely lost - i realize that they are talking about sentences but haven't gotten that sophisticated yet. i do have a question though. how do you enter a child without a mother - what do you put in the mother slot?

darrellm

Bob: It's the "text inside" part -- what gets replaced?

Bob_Velke

put nothing there, cgh, unless you know something about her.

Bob_Velke

darrell, "<near [L]>". Near gets replaced.

Bob_Velke

you don't have to record a mother, cgh.

CheriM

Bob: If Fred marries Wilma and she dies, then he marries Betty and she dies and then he marries Minnie Mouse, I get the sentences (in the Journal Rep) that says he married Wilma. Blah blah blah. He married Betty. Blah blah blah. I'd like it to say he married Betty second, or he married second to Betty. A friend suggested doing alternate roles.

Kevin_Sholder

unless near is a varialble [NEAR]

barbarag

Fran, I keep the data on the USB drive, I have exhibits saves on both computer using the same path. The USB drive is also used to put exhibits on that I need to add to the other computer

cgh

so that when a report is printed like a family group sheet does it just leave the mother section blank?

darrellm

Bob: I would see this as a problem to be solved by the user. The preposition would be "part of [L]" in the very limited sense of output. Not in the MPL. Kevin's sentence variable is a different idea.

FranSegall

And John, whichever way this preposition thing is resolved, you need to read our minds re: the zillion ways we've handled prepositions and start coding something to help us clean up our data AGAIN!

barbarag

Fran, I keep my backups on the hard drive one each computer. So if one hard drive, or the USB drive expires. I have fairly current backups

cgh

one would think that the compiler forgot to insert a name

Bob_Velke

If you want to do that without having to change the sentence on the Tag Entry screen, then rolls is a way to do it, Cheri. But what will Pebbles and Bam Bam say about all this??

CheriM

CGH: You could just type in "Unknown" for the mother. I do that alot

stans

All - I'm resigned to having to edit prepositions at the word processor level. My opinion is that there is just so much that an automated process can do.

Bob_Velke

Kevin, we can't have a variable for every preposition.

Bob_Velke

rolls=roles. I must be hungry.

darrellm

Bob: I hope Kevin wasn't suggesting that. I thought he meant a Tag-local value, accessed by [PREP] or the like.

cgh

so you end up with several "unknown" in the pick list?

CheriM

Bob: So when I add wife 2 I could change the tag sentence on that screen only (vs. globally?) Am I making sense?

Bob_Velke

Why, Cheri?

CheriM

CGH--Yes, I have many "Unknowns"

cgh

okay then i guess that's okay

Bob_Velke

Why, Cheri <g>?

CheriM

Bob: So it says he married second to Betty

Bob_Velke

You don't need to add a person named "unknown" to do that, Cheri.

barbarag

CherisM. Read Terry's http://tmg.reigelridge.com/Roles-Marriage.htm -- one way to handle multiple marriages

darrellm

cgh & CheriM: I don't understand the need to enter anything for an unknown mother. What is the benefit, as against leaving the mother field blank?

Pegasus891

What is MPL?

Master Place List [72 people responded <g>]

John_C

FYI: TMG acronyms are explained here: http://www.whollygenes.com/forums201/index.php?showtopic=333

stans

CheriM - My feeling is that this is one reason *not* to use the Picklist. In a large data set, having the picklist linked slows things down too much. I much prefer using Project Explorer, where Reference Field, &c, are displayed. That way, you know which "unknown" it is.

Kevin_Sholder

Bob, true, as I said before, trying to put as many cards on the table as we can.

CheriM

Barbara==OK, will print that one out. Thanks.

CheriM

Darrell: I just don't like the blank field, that's all. And in some of my records it clearly states that the father was unknown (baby out of wedlock).

Bob_Velke

I'm afraid that I have a family committment and have to leave soon. Maybe others will hang around. Is there another question for me?

FranSegall

Barb, but if (hypothetically, of course) I didn't want to leave the USB drive attached - at work, for example (hypothetically, of course)- is there any way to keep the Advanced preferences path settings from reverting back every time? It's kinda wierd, some of them change to the way the preferences were on the other computer, but some of them revert back to the default (under the TMG program folder).

cgh

is it better to say in a memo under the child that the mother is unknown? this way you don't get all the "unknown" in the pick list.

darrellm

CheriM: I would certainly record the direct statement that the father was unknown, but even *that* doesn't require an entry in the father field.

Pegasus891

I assign the unknowns a number so if I locate the information I can enter it for the proper unknown.

CheriM

Stans: I don't mind all my "Unknowns." If I find out who it is, I go to the spouse and then I see the Unknown spouse and I fix it from there. That's my fix-it. Guess it's just a difference of user style.

darrellm

Pegasus891: What benefit is that over leaving the field blank? The question is not meant to be rhetorical.

henry

Before you go Bob. Is there a way in which the user can remove the period at the end of sentences, e.g. to run sentences from two or more tags together?

Kevin_Sholder

Darrell, I would agree with that.

John_C

Henry: there is no way to do that as far as I know (AFAIK)

Bob_Velke

Not currently, Henry, but it is on the wish list. You can suppress one sentence and write a combined one in the second, however.

Kevin_Sholder

I'm out of here, have kids that want to play mario gamecube with Dad, since mom is away for the weekend. BYE and THANK YOU.

CheriM

CGH: That would be another way to work around the Unknonws.

barbarag

Fran, the project preferences are stored with the project so remain the same on each computer, Program options can be different on each machine

Bob_Velke

Do you put "unknown" in dates and places, I wonder?

stans

henry - A presenter at RUG in Arlington, Va., addressed this. Replace [P] at the beginning of a tag with a comma or a semicolon, followed by a space.

darrellm

stans: Does that suppress the ending period from the previous sentence?

CheriM

Bob: Personally I put Circa dates, and sometimes I can put "maybe Smith Co" in the places with a note in the memo.

FranSegall

Thanks, Barb. Although that doesn't seem to be quite what's happening. But I'll take another look.

Bob_Velke

ok, that's when you know something about the date or place. But if you know nothing about it, do you enter "unknown"?

stans

Darrell - No, unfortunately; however, my opinion is that it is inevitable that some editing must remain at the word processor level.

CheriM

Bob: Personally, I just leave it blank until I can find a clue.

darrellm

stans: I don't accept that for my own output, but if you work that way then it's not difficult to use.

Bob_Velke

Cheri, that's the point of those who don't enter "unknown" people <g>.

Bob_Velke

If it isn't entered, then it is unknown without having to say so.

darrellm

CheriM: I'm still wondering what actual benefit you get from entering the unknowns. I'm not saying there isn't one....

CheriM

Bob: Well, it's like a crooked picture in the house. It drives me crazy. I can't stand to see the name at the top, the father's name and no mother's name. So I put Unknown. LOL

darrellm

CheriM: Breathing exercises might help! <g>

Bob_Velke

OK, Cheri. If "Unknown" there comforts you, then knock yourself out <g>.

CheriM

Yep :)

CheriM

LOL

cgh

you guys are bad!

cgh

LOL

barbarag

<g> not us

Bob_Velke

We're just trying to see if we were missing something, Cheri. Thanks for taking it in good humor.

bnx

Not you Barb, your good

Bob_Velke

ok, folks, sorry but I have to go. Thanks for coming.

John_C

barbarag

Talk to you latter tonight

darrellm

salutations!

bnx

When is the next one?

Bob_Velke

Feel free to hang around. There are many experts here.

CheriM

Bob: No, there really is no point in it. Just preference, I suppose. Like that stupid "I" in that army unit that drives me crazy and looks like lower case l.

Bob_Velke

dunno, bnx. Watch the newsletter.

Bob_Velke

Is anyone here from the East side of the big pond?

Bob_Velke

Wondering if the 2pm timeslot helps.

CheriM

Isn't the next one at 11pm ET tonight?

Bob_Velke

well, yes <g>

bnx

2pm is good

CheriM

I'm Pacific time.

barbarag

I think at one time there were 28 lurking about today.

cgh

i'm eastern - where is the big pond?

henry

This time is good for me in UK

Francie

This time is great for us that go to bed early!

Bob_Velke

the Atlantic.

Pegasus891

I agree with Cheri. For me there is a difference between blanks where I have not yet done research and blanks where I have tried to find information but it remains unknown.

Bob_Velke

ah, good Henry. Good to see you here.

CheriM

Pegasus: I think it's just researcher style. That's what makes TMG so good. You can pretty much adapt it to the way you one.

barbarag

Bob, enjoy the afternoon.

CheriM

you want, I mean.

Bob_Velke

Thanks, everyone for coming. Bye...

Bob_Velke

<poof>

CheriM

Bye Bob

Pegasus891

No, I don't put unknown in dates and places.

CheriM

Thank you all. I'll try the marriage thing and then try to come back tonight. Bye

darrellm

CheriM & Pegasus891: How do you avoid all the unknowns popping up in reports, or on charts?

darrellm

Boy, it's "turn out the lights, the party's over".

Pegasus891

I'm still here

FranSegall

Thanks, y'all! The laundry is calling my name....

Pegasus891

I read slowly. I use unknown judiciously. I don't have tons.

cgh

so am i - it's my first time and have enjoyed it however the preposition thingy got a little sticky

darrellm

Pegasus891: OK, understood.

Pegasus891

I have only done a little with narratives. I haven't printed anything since I got my new version

barbarag

cgh we always have a good time here. many opinions!

darrellm

cgh: The preposition thing is going to do that. Just remember you can carry on a parallel conversation. You don't have to "wait your turn".

Pegasus891

I learned a lot in a local users group. I have to get back to it.

barbarag

I think at one time today, 3 or 4 different conversations were going on

cgh

don't laugh too loud - do you all type in the name of the person you are replying to or is there a simpler way?

Pegasus891

It is sponsored by our state genealogical society.

Francie

At least - maybe 5!

darrellm

John_C: Is there anything important about prepositions we missed?

AllenM

<g> Darrell, we could always talk about before and after if we want sticky.

John_C

Darrell: Yes--it should be simple; simplifying the design--at the possible cost of a few extra keystrokes here and there--is far better than handling every condition

barbarag

cgh, we try to add the name. That way we can sort of follow a conversation

darrellm

cgh: I type it in. If there's an easier way, I'm all ears ... errrr, screen.

Pegasus891

I learned about the project explorer. I went and looked it up. I didn't know it was there.

cgh

darrellm: okay thanks

darrellm

AllenM: HOOT! Sticky is one thing, argumentative would be another!!!

Pegasus891

Can anyone tell me how to surpress a note when I am printing out narratives?

darrellm

John_C: Which is why I've tried to think of things that aren't "all or nothing" as I mentioned.

darrellm

Pegasus891: What kind of note? A Tag memo?

Pegasus891

yes

darrellm

Pegasus891: Tag memos print in one of two cases. If "append memo" is in the report definition; or if the Tag sentence calls for it.

TerryR

Hi, just got back and see there was talk about multiple styles for the same place.

barbarag

Pegasus891, do you always want it surpressed or just sometimes

Pegasus891

I always want to surpress this particular note for this person.

darrellm

Pegasus891: If you want to append the memo for the report overall, but not for some sentences, add <[M0]> ("em-zero") to the sentence.

darrellm

Pegasus891: For specific text, you can use curly braces (shift-[ and shift-]). Or, if you want to supress an entire sentence, begin it with - or -- exclusion markers. More?

darrellm

TerryR: A lot of discussion about prepositions, but the styles question per se got lost in the shuffle.

barbarag

There's several ways -- See Exclude Information in the Help Files

darrellm

<;-)> barbarag: That would be "more".

barbarag

darrellm - so pick up the style question again tonignt.

darrellm

barbarag: I'll be here.

barbarag

darrellm - me too.

TerryR

Thanks, Darrell, I've been pushing for allowing multiple styles per place as a way to get long then short place names in reports.

barbarag

It's time for me to leave, 'see' some of you later

TerryR

Looks like the discussion here on multiple styles was to address the preposition issue.

John_C

Terry: Why not suggest adding a "Short place output template"?

darrellm

TerryR: True, but I don't think prepositions would be the only - not even the most important - reason for a change to styles handling.

TerryR

John: Like in SS?

TerryR

That's one way to do it, but seems to me less flexible.

John_C

Terry: Well... SS doesn't have a short place template. It uses the TMG project's default. I am suiggesting a short place template that varies by place style.

darrellm

<g> John_C: Better, a "short place" sentence variable. Even better, emulate Second Site.

Pegasus891

thanks

John_C

TMG would need logic to use the short place template based on the contents of previous tags in the narratrive

TerryR

I'm not clear on how to make a single template that works with various elements being present.

darrellm

Pegasus891: Does what you found answer your question?

TerryR

But SS has a long then short feature - the short uses TMG's short place?

John_C

Terry: Then specify a short place for the place

John_C

TerryR: Yes

darrellm

TerryR: It's gloriously effective.

TerryR

But you can't do that at the tag level, can you?

Pegasus891

Darrellm: Yes, thank you.

John_C

No, you can't do that at the tag level, but the place data doesn't change at the tag level

TerryR

But the desired output does.

TerryR

At least I think it does.

John_C

SS watches for the same place record used multiple times in a narrative. If the user has selected short, then full, SS substitutes the short place for the 2nd thru Nth places

darrellm

John_C: TMG would have to determine an equivalent to Second Site's "person entry"; a clear line at which the place replacement starts over.

John_C

Darrell: I think TMG has that concept now, though I admit I haven't reviewed every report

darrellm

John_C: I have to admit I haven't put much effort into the minutiae of paper reports from TMG 6.

John_C

DarrellM: neither have I... <g>

TerryR

I'd think the long then short method would be a good addition to TMG.

TerryR

With a report like a Journal, though, does it start over with each person, or one time thru for the whole report?

John_C

TerryR: I'd suggest restarting at each person. For spouse and children events within a person entry, they would be subject to the rule

TerryR

Sounds reasonable.

AllenM

I agree with John about starting with each person.

darrellm

-- lurkers -- Any questions?

TerryR

Each "person" entry is a unit, with the spouse and children listed below being the same unit.

John_C

Thanks Allen--that's what I meant

TerryR

It's less work to set up than using styles, and adjusts for changes in output with different reports.

John_C

Terry: Exactly. You don't want to have to modify tag B because you just added tag A

TerryR

But slightly less flexible within a given person's narrative.

John_C

But... I think *one* short template for the entire project might not be enough. THat's why I suggest a short place template for each place style. Perhaps it's not necessary

AllenM

Terry,

AllenM

there comes a point when you have to edit in a word processor. Pace, Darrell

TerryR

Never! <g>

AllenM

What, never?

John_C

AllenM: Those of us who generate SS sites every couple days don't want to post-process, though Darrell does ! <g>

TerryR

Yes, but I really don't believe in doing that - I find I keep outputting different reports with different combinations of people, so want the edits to "stick."

darrellm

Pace tecum, Allen, but so far for me, not true.

John_C

I've got to go, and I am going to grab the transcript now. Any objections?

TerryR

Bye.

TerryR

John

AllenM

Bye

darrellm

John_C: And every new feature, I pare down the post-processing more. I may even get it all in one batch file!

darrellm

John_C: By the way, I don't use post-processing to handle *content*. I do all that in TMG using the assumption the output will be left alone.

TerryR

Wonder if you could develop a short place template that includes conditionals?

darrellm

Laundry is calling me too. Later tonight!

TerryR

Say if the city exists, omit the county, but if not, include it?

darrellm

TerryR: I was about to say you can do that now, but not I think with "nested" or "not" conditionals....

darrellm

Bye all!!!

TerryR

I'm thinking that one short place template can't work when some places include cities, and others don't, for example.

John_C

Terry: In the current SS, I use the same rules for the short place template as for the output template in the style.

John_C

I also think that the short place logic has to handle some special cases: if the short place template yields a blank place, but the actual place isn't blank, show the full place, for example

TerryR

I'm not sure what that means in this case??

John_C

Place templates have limited conditional rules and SS uses them for the short place template

TerryR

I don't think that solves my problem. When I have a place with a city, county, state, I might want city only for short.

John_C

That's more complicated... if city <> blank then show city, else ...

TerryR

But if it's county, state, I want county for short. I don't think I can do both with exiting rules.

TerryR

Your idea of a short template per style would work, but require me to set the style depending on the contents.

TerryR

Have we beat this to death?

AllenM

But isn't that what styles are all about anyway?

TerryR

I suppose, but have never found a need for them so far.

TerryR

I find the standard style works find for the full place.

TerryR

So having to set them to get the short place to work seems unnecessarly complex if it could be set up with a clever enough short template

AllenM

Wait a minute! Isn't the short place enough? In the MPL, County, State is a different place from City, County, State.

TerryR

The short place field in the MPL would work, but they're awful to use in my view. I'm looking for the short place template to be able to do it automatically.

TerryR

I'd rather set place styles for every tag than have to enter something in the short place field for many places.

TerryR

Now if you could access the short place field from a tag rather than having to go to the MPL, that might be different.

AllenM

I see what you mean, but I have a lot fewer places than tags.